>>So, how do you reset your password when you forget it? Well, it depends.
But I don't! I can write a password in any amount of low and high tech ways! I have them printed on paper in safe deposit box (my wife is bad with passwords, so this is safety if I should perish:), I have them in a password manager on USB sticks at home in a safe, I have them copied on my NAS and laptop and so on.
Whereas passkeys, it seems from everywhere I read to be far more fragile, far more locked in to specific perishable hardware device and a specific vendor ecosystem, and very limited or no ways to handle passkeys in a low tech way or as a file/artifact to be backed up. Basically they assume I live on and with my phone.
To put it bluntly:
Passwords are something I can use if I show up naked at a stranger's house. They can be with me in and through an emergency (physical emergencies exist! Computer geeks forget about those!). Or more commonly, I can use them to check my email or comms if I forget my phone at a friend's house.
That was helpful but there's a difference between "possible" and "feasible in practice for the vast majority of users". Eg, you can theoretically develop your own passkey device as you say, but that doesn't mean most people can.
I'm not sure I really prefer passkeys less than passwords but I do think some of the "misconceptions" aren't really misconceptions, but realistic concerns about what happens in practice. It might be better to be up front about these than dismissive, because that's where the problems in practice develop.
If I have an iPhone, Mac, Windows PC, and Android Tablet I want to know and talk about what I can do with Passkeys, not what could theoretically be done. After all, I'm not looking at Passkeys for an academic exercise. I'm actually looking to see how feasible it is for me to use Passkeys to replace my passwords today.
If that means "install BitWarden on all of your devices. The devices will work with it and you can backup/export your key locally" that's fantastic, I'd love to see a guide on how to get that going on all of my devices. However, if that means "according to the standards, something like a BitWarden could do what you want it to do, if they built it, allowed export, and the devices all allowed integration. Alternatively, you replace your devices with ones that do." then I really don't care what the theory says could be done, Passkeys cannot actually replace my use of passwords at the moment.
Well, I disagree. People aren't saying "I want to use this today and can't because X is missing", they're saying "I'm opposed to this technology because X will never be possible", when it will be.
Look at this comment, as the first example I found:
It basically says "Passkeys = USB keys", which is wrong. If you don't like the tradeoffs that specific authenticator makes, use another passkey authenticator type.
"Passkeys are strictly less secure" is just objectively wrong.
I don't think it is different. I mostly see people dismissing Passkeys as a technology because of X or Y thing that "they don't do", when that's either a mistaken assumption, or something they don't do right now.
Mistaken assumptions, sure. What "mostly" people do maybe, it depends on those conversations. What Passkeys might do in the future is irrelevant to whether it makes sense for people to be dismissing them now, though, and confusing/frustrating to read about in these kinds of threads (maybe not other threads).
Today, you can seamlessly sync your passwords, export them, and utilize auto-fill integration across the aforementioned devices. Not "it could be possible based on the design if the manufacturers and apps wanted to do it", it is possible.
Today, it is not possible to do the same on those devices using Passkeys. That's not the same as claiming "it's guaranteed to forever be impossible because of the inherent design of Passkeys" and reading every conversation as such could well be the source of why the misconceptions seem so common. There is little to no guarantee from any of these manufacturers it will ever be possible either, so predicating the conclusion on that possibility of change definitely occuring isn't sensible. Again, not because the Passkey spec can't, the devices/implementations may just not want to. Remember, the spec doesn't require devices and implementations allow it to happen, it just accommodates for the possibility.
If implementations available for people to actually use change in the future, so will the dismissals. In the meantime, the dismissals of what's not possible are not misconceptions just because it's possible it may change down the line. It still remains impossible right now, even though I'm hopeful it will become possible in the future.
And again, sure - other threads probably have a lot of flat mistakes or different claims. But, if I wanted to discuss what other threads are saying, I wouldn't be reading and replying in this one.
Thank you for eloquently putting this. I am exactly in that boat. I'm reasonably IT savvy but not a security researcher. I help a large number of not tech savvy people with advice.
I don't care to either dismiss or evangelize the technology based on what it may or may not be able to do in the future. My questions are whether these are user friendly and usable today or should I wait and see. I feel all my concerns of "if I and my family adopt this right now, today, on my actual devices, what are my risks and capabilities? How can I safety my family and backup things and set them up for success?" Are answered with "in the future, in theory, somebody somewhere will come up with this solution which is not currently strictly prohibited "
If you don't like Google's implementation, you should use another one. It doesn't make much sense to say "I can't do X with my thing, therefore I can't do it with anything".
The fact remains that, if you want a Passkey you can write down, you can do that.
Thank you. It is disheartening that so many HN readers would rather imagine how passkeys work, and freak out at their own imaginings, than just learn the real thing.
Somewhat fair criticism, but also somewhat unfair. A lot of us are trying to read up and understand, and so we post questions in forums like these with knowledgeable folks, in hopes to enhance our understanding and reduce our concern.
One counter point though is that... if there is a new lifesaving technology, and even the somewhat IT literate / somewhat geeky / folks who WANT to understand it, are struggling... it may not be as simple and easy and safe. If I ask "how do I backup my passwords", I'll have 10 million folks answer "use a password manager, backup the file". When I ask similar questions with passkeys, the breadth,inconsistency and complexity of answers is as insightful as it is worrisome.
No complaints with questions, but many of the questions are in the form of assertions that are incorrect.
"Does that mean that passkeys can't be shared between users or devices?" is a 100% reasonable question.
"Passkeys are a step backward because they can't be shared between users or devices" is not really a question, it's an opinion based on imagination.
And passwords are just as complex. How do you securely share a login with another user?
Yes, there's complexity, but it's complexity born of a change in paradigm. The actual new thing is either equally simple or simpler than traditional passwords, once you factor in scenarios like backup, transfer, multi-device sync, sharing, etc. It's just different.
Have a look around this thread. Lots of smart people having difficulties figuring out how this works. This is a bad sign. It shouldn't be this hard to figure out the basics.
> It shouldn't be this hard to figure out the basics
Why not? There are lots of great things in the world that are easy and a joy to use, but fairly challenging to learn the technical details of. The electricity grid, airplanes, microwave ovens, you name it. Tons of straightforward user experiences that take some work to understand.
I don't see people having trouble grasping the technical specifics, I see a lot of people having knee-jerk reactions and reacting to their own assumptions of how Passkeys work.
But I don't! I can write a password in any amount of low and high tech ways! I have them printed on paper in safe deposit box (my wife is bad with passwords, so this is safety if I should perish:), I have them in a password manager on USB sticks at home in a safe, I have them copied on my NAS and laptop and so on.
Whereas passkeys, it seems from everywhere I read to be far more fragile, far more locked in to specific perishable hardware device and a specific vendor ecosystem, and very limited or no ways to handle passkeys in a low tech way or as a file/artifact to be backed up. Basically they assume I live on and with my phone.
To put it bluntly:
Passwords are something I can use if I show up naked at a stranger's house. They can be with me in and through an emergency (physical emergencies exist! Computer geeks forget about those!). Or more commonly, I can use them to check my email or comms if I forget my phone at a friend's house.
Passkeys are... strictly worse?