And then proceeded to piss all over it. Please spare me the lame attempts to elevate utterly delusional belief systems that only serve to retard humanity.

NB: I'm religious, and in my opinion therefore biased.

I would counter that we need something to "retard" (your word) us as a species from acting on pure intellect and reason.

For example - the purely rational and logical conclusion based on genetics, biology and economic theory would be that we cull the unfit, lame, and stupid for the betterment of the species.

That we emotionally rebel against such an intelectual conclusion indicates that there are higher values that we humans possess in varying degrees that are not based on pure reason.

From what I've seen historically, those arguments and suppositions that back us away from pure rationality tended to have been espoused by the religious or at least spiritual.

I would say that we could debate the merits of such a religious viewpoint - but the very existence of human culture up until now has certainly been influenced and shaped by such a viewpoint and would need consideration by all but the most strident of logical thinkers.

Nothing about morality, ethics or even 'higher values' requires believing in the supernatural.

> the purely rational and logical conclusion based on genetics, biology and economic theory would be that we cull the unfit, lame, and stupid for the betterment of the species.

See that's the problem. Where did that come from? Why is that the logical conclusion? Where is the data that says this is good for anyone. This is utter nonsense. I don't known of anyone in science who would even remotely think this way. And yet what happens is that religious people will repeat this kind of nonsense, attribute it to scientists and have the less-informed jump on the bandwagon.

Do you really believe in singing bushes?

Or talking snakes?

Or parting seas?

Or virgin pregnancy?

Or a god that is OK with millions of people being killed in genocides while at the same time he/she/it helps someone score at a soccer match?

Or a god that was able to show himself to a few people two fucking thousand years ago when there were no reliable methods of communication yet cannot make an appearance in front of a camera TODAY to set us straight?

Do you really believe in a god that ordered a believer to take his son to the top of a mountain and nearly murder him as a test of devotion? Do you, really?

Do you really believe someone walked on water?

Do you really believe

Do you really believe that a time will come when millions of people will be magically taken away from earth by god while everyone else stays behind and dies a horrible death?

Do you really believe that homosexuals are deviants?

Do you really believe that everything in your life is preordained?

Do you really believe that praying in a building with a guy in a funny hat is rational?

Do you believe that decency cannot be had without the belief and fear of a supernatural being?

You don't really believe the bible is the word of a god, right?

I could go on. But, please, do answer these. Do you really, truly believe this shit? Are you truly a modern intellectually-balanced person who, despite the advances in culture, knowledge, technology and science during the last, say, 500 years can't stop to consider it might be time to get out of the caves and see these delusions for what they are?

Religion and belief are, of course, part and parcel of human history. And --this may surprise you coming from an atheist-- they should be taught in school as part of human history. It is no different from teaching any other aspect of human history. People need to know where we came from. That said, the minute these primitive beliefs are placed on an even plane with science we've crossed from the reasonable study of human history into a delusional attempt to use the supernatural to distort realty for usually twisted control purposes. That a priest isn't thrown in prison forever for molesting a kid in this day and age is beyond my comprehension.

The view that morality is somehow tied to religion is laughable. I won't go farther than that. I know just about as many religious as non-religious people and I can tell you from my admittedly minuscule data sample that there are assholes on both sides of the fence. Except that religious assholes seem to have the ability to do wrong and then feel OK because they confessed inside a building to a guy in a funny hat and robe.

An to address your NB. That's exactly the problem. You are biased and, if a true believer, intransigent. That's is the HUGE difference between a scientific approach to reality and one founded in superstition. Reproducible and verifiable proof is all that is needed to shift masses of people from an old understanding to a new discovery. This can happen virtually overnight. There's almost nothing I can say to make you consider that the guys in the funny hats telling you that a snake spoke and bush sang are floating you a pile of shit that you are, for some reason, swallowing whole despite reality.

What would make me accept creationism? Proof. Proof that is supported through masses of evidence and cross-checked across a range of disciplines. Proof that survives challenge and testing. Proof that can be reproduced by anyone on this planet. Proof that shows how the existing mountains of evidence to the contrary might be wrong. Do that and I'll be the most ardent supporter of creationism.

A thousand years from now people are going to look at this time just exactly the same way we look at the ancients who believed in Thor, Zeus and a myriad of other gods. They believed in human and animal sacrifice. They believed in a million things that today are taught as history yet not for one second raised to the level of being reasonable belief systems. Anyone walking into Congress declaring belief and trust on Thor or Zeus would be a laughed out of office. In a thousand years all of this. What you believe today. Will be just as nonsensical as what they believed a thousand years ago.

Whether you care to admit or accept it or not, you believe what you believe due to indoctrination.

Think about it.

>> Do you really, truly believe this shit? Are you truly a modern intellectually-balanced person who, despite the advances in culture, knowledge, technology and science during the last, say, 500 years can't stop to consider it might be time to get out of the caves and see these delusions for what they are?

I'm Christian - and indeed I do not logically believe this weird little tale about some random Jew that claimed to be god and yet couldn't even save his own life.

I have an entirely irrational faith from a logical standpoint, and I'll cling to this as the alternative is that this life is a meaningless flop in a dying universe.

My irrational faith that Christ died on the cross to destroy death and to save us from our own sin.

Indeed my faith recognizes this and says "we're fools for Christ" 1 Corinthians 4:10

>>Whether you care to admit or accept it or not, you believe what you believe due to indoctrination.

To answer your second question - I was raised an atheist. I came to faith through a combination of logic and a realization that I can't save myself from death. Either my own death or the heat-death (or crunch) of the universe.

Pascal's wager and all that writ large.